Interview
Heather Payton
BBC
January 9, 2002
With:
- Dr. Stevanne Auerbach (Berkeley, CA USA) http://drtoy.com
- Dr. Jean-Pierre Rossie (Belgium)
- Sudarshan Khanna (India)
Heather Payton:
We'd like to play you some quick little interviews that Jasper did earlier today with people in London talking about toys. The question he asked "what was their least favorite toy?" (Following random quotes from anonymous men and women)
F.
My least favorite toy was a puppet of Red Riding Hood, which when you turned up the other way was a wolf. On the back was a grandma.It scared me so I didn't like it.
M.
My Action Man.
F.
I guess a doll.
M.
Spinner top.
Jasper:
Why didn't you like it?
M.
I broke it, I think, it was the first day I think. I couldn't get it to go around properly. I didn't like it ever since. So, that was my least favorite toy.
F.
I didn't have a least favorite.
F.
Dolls. I wasn't a doll person at all.
F.
I had a turtle. Which is not a toy, it's an animal, but I guess it was my toy in a sense.
Jasper:
But you didn't like this turtle?
F.
Oh, I liked it but it died when I went away to summer camp.
HP.
Okay. Some curious views on toys I guess. Can I ask Stevanne is there any point in children having toys because we give them toys for Christmas and then a couple of weeks later they're lying broken on the floor and no one seems to care about them. What's the point?
SA.
Well, toys are wonderful for stimulation and for learning. Some of the comments on the interviews remind me of the issues of unsafe toys. Some things that children play with can get broken very easily. I know it's very important to design toys that are safe and are well made so they don't get broken the first time the child uses them. It can be very disappointing to a child to have a favorite toy broken too easily.
HP.
But what's the point? What does having toys actually do for kids?
SA.
Toys help children learn many skills-eye/hand coordination, reading readiness, counting, language plus they provide stimulation to their thinking, exploration, and enhancing their creativity-there are many aspects of development that happen through play. Toys stimulate many forms of play.
HP.
Sudarshan, Can I ask you the same question. What do children have toys for? What's the important thing about them?
SK.
You know, I personally, started liking toys as an adult.
HP.
Not as a child?
SK.
No, I played as a child. I made my own toys. I made the kite, and the tops, and these are a number of the toys. But I rediscovered it at the age of about 25-26. In fact, while teaching design courses, and I found that toys were the outstanding examples of design. I found out they're like the seeds of an idea which has a sort of multi-sensitive experience with a little wonder. You know, which has a lot to fantasize and yet friendly and something which you can go on exploring, with fun. So I think for a child, the toy is actually like a fiction, actually like a novel. It's not the product but it's actually the experience. It's a kind of inner exploration, what a child goes through when they play with the object.
HP.
Do you think good toys stimulate imagination?'
SK.
I was telling you when I got interested in the toy, and when I saw that children like some toys and they don't like some toys. I found that the children had really specific preferences irrespective of the price tag the toys which give them a possibility of imagination and toys which give them possibilities of a kind of exploration and self-participation they value a lot.
HP.
Jean Pierre, it's interesting what Sudarshan was saying that he used to make his own toys as a child. Is that what you find, because I know your special area of studies is toys in North Africa and the way kids play with toys there. Do you find that most children tend to make their own toys or toys for kids from poorer families?
J-PR.
Yes, there are two different situations in Morocco, for example. You have children from rural areas and rural cities. They make most of their toys themselves. The children from popular and middle class families. On the other hand, you have in the larger cities most toys are bought for the children.
HP.
Is there any difference in the development of those children? Do the children who have the toys that are bought, do they develop in a different way from the kids who make their own?
J-PR.
That would be difficult to say because there is no real study about that. But, what is for sure is that children will make themselves their toys, they normally use natural material and waste material. So, through this, there is a very important learning of their natural and human environment in which they live. So it's an extremely important way to get to know this fundamental things in life.
HP.
Well Stevanne, what would you say to that because you do suspect that kids enjoy playing with old boxes and bits of wood and all sorts of things like that sort of play just as much as they do all these expensive toys?
SA.
Absolutely. I believe children begin play with the most simple materials: boxes, paper and other materials that they have around them that are natural. These objects make the most sense because that's where they can learn and develop more of their imagination. They use their imagination from turning a box into whatever they want it to become. Making toys happens a great deal when children don't have a lot of toys. The child can bring different objects together and create a new plaything. But, I think making a toy is a very important skill for all children to learn. It helps them to use their imagination, and to make something for themselves. I think a lot of creativity happens when children have the opportunity to make things for themselves.
I don't think everything should be bought. I think we need to provide all children with the opportunity of putting things together. Everything should not be purchased. So this requires parenting education and the kind of information I present in my book, Smart Play; I want to encourage parents to play with their children, to use puppets, to use the materials that they can make things together, to use paper, crayons, cut up paper and use their imagination. What Sudarshan mentions about the value of designing the toy and finding how much adults really appreciate toys, is very true. As an adult, you can look back into your childhood and you can remember a toy that you enjoyed as a child. You can recall a toy that perhaps broke or didn't satisfy you. You can remember years later the experience of playing as a child. I'm very interested in this because toys have a great lasting impact on children.
HP.
Can you remember a toy that was very special to you?
SA.
Oh, absolutely. I loved "Jacks and Ball". I liked to play this game with friends. It was a skill that I just enjoyed doing. I taught my daughter to play Jacks and Ball.
HP.
Good coordination, of course, isn't it?
SA.
Absolutely, and it's fun. It's a game where you learn counting, coordination, social interaction, and you can have a great fun. So toys don't have to be expensive to be fun.
HP.
Sudarshan, you said that you really only discovered toys as an adult. But is there anything that you remember from your childhood that you particularly enjoyed?
SK.
No. I picked up a toy and just played with it, which is just a piece of paper. I played as a child
Sudarshan, I know that you said that you didn't really discover toys until you were an adult. Is there anything from your childhood that you particularly remember playing with?
SK.
. I was very fond of tops of all kinds. For example, I have a toy which is a piece of string with a piece of paper attached. And when you swing it in the air, this does like this [demonstrates with buzzing sound]. I think what a child is really valuing is why this thing is happening. How a tiny paper and a tiny string can create so much out of nothing. And I think this idea will germinate to the experience of discovering things from little to a lot of relationships. I think that is extremely important.
SK.
We're talking about certain toys, why they are very valuable to children and why people really are very interested in that. There's one toy which is spinner, its' a seed, a rubber plant seed. The interesting thing about the toy is the rubber plant seed is hollowed by the ants, which actually means children leave the seed in an anthill all night and the ants eat away and make it a shell. Now, this experience is, a really phenomenal experience which actually makes the toy. You sort of go into the process of building the toy.
HP.
It's easy to see that there are those toys which are really good for children. Sudarshan, do you think there are toys that are bad for kids?
SK.
You know, one thing is that I think it's not the toy which are bad, but it's the approach. You see, if we design, if we market, and if we push through toys in terms of a commodity, as a consumer commodity-then I think people will get bored.
HP.
Can you give me an examples of that?
SK.
This is a flooded market today. What you see when you go to any of the supermarkets , any of the toy stores, you see the flood of things which are almost the same. You see the one kind being duplicated in many ways. And the idea is not really to excite the person, idea is not to put the person into the mystery and wonder and all that. I think the strength of a good idea is that a toy has to have a context. You see, it's not important the mere attraction. It's not important really you sort of, you make a false impression of the toy. So, I think while there are quite many interesting ideas today, but the ideas which are classic and which are the popular toys which we live to are amazing things.
HP.
Jean-Pierre, can I ask you, do you think there are some toys that are bad for children?
J-PR.
Bad as maybe, hard word, but certainly, toys that have no real value for children. For example, I think when a toy cannot give a child the possibility to add something to it, if he can not repair it or it cannot be broken down and remade in some way, then the child only has an object that is completely finished to which he cannot change anything. And I believe this isn't of big value for children's development.
HP.
Stevanne, do you think do you think there are some toys that are bad for children?
SA.
There are some bad toys: I think there are things like toy guns.I don't think they're good for children. I think anything that's not made safely is a bad toy.
HP.
Can the child can have too many toys?
SA.
I agree with my colleagues that having toys that are open-ended and creative like kites and paper and strings are wonderful, and toys that teach children about nature like the ant farm, is a wonderful product. The child can observe how ants make and live in their environment. Having anything that helps the child relate to nature is wonderful. But, a toy that is already developed by a designer that is complete, and doesn't give the child an opportunity to think for themselves often limits their thinking, the child's thinking. So that could be bad, or not as good as something that's open-ended like blocks, paper and crayons. Toys that are more open-ended allow children to develop more and have higher play value. I think that when a toy is measured by high play value, it allows the child to interact with the toy, and use their imagination. The reason I think we all agree about boxes and paper is that these are open-ended objects and can become anything the child wants them to be. Therefore, it gives the child the opportunity to be empowered, to think for themselves. Toys that limit that are not as effective.
HP.
Well, we all know parents who give their children huge amounts of all the latest toys and spend an awful lot of money. Can children have too many? Is there too much of a good thing?
SA.
Absolutely. Not only are there too many. They become disorganized. They can take over the living and play space. They can have too much. They can be overwhelmed, But it's not the toys that are at fault, it's the fact that there's too many things all at one time that overload children. Parents need to remember to put the extra things away, to recycle them, and to bring them out again as the child needs them and when they are wanted. They need to be stored in an appropriate place. Certainly its not good to overwhelm children with too many things. Fewer is better.
HP.
And, just briefly, if you were going to give manufacturers advice in designing toys, what would you say to them?
SA.
I'd like them to observe children, to watch them children playing. I think many manufacturers do not take the time to do this. They often isolate themselves in the design process and don't see how the toy will play well with children. They need to look at what's missing in the world of toys. Some of the creative things that need to develop for children may not be in their environment. Bringing the child to the natural experience and creative play is really wonderful.
HP.
Jean-Pierre, what advice would you give?
J-PR.
I don't have so much advice for toy industry manufacturers because the regions where I am there isn't this kind of toy industry. But what probably is a little bit illusionary is that before over flooding, for example countries like Morocco with cheap toys, plastic toys, it would be interesting if manufacturers would have a look at what already exists locally. And if they can't use and develop anything of local toys into industrial toys. But I am not sure that will happen.
HP.
No, okay. Sudarshan, you already do design toys so let me ask you, what advice would you give to the parents who buy them?
SK.
Well, I think the parents should look from the child's point of view. The children have their own way of telling. I think a child is often able to see the value of a toy far more clearly because one can see the context. I also think for designingwe often involve, after the idea, a lot of children to play. In fact, we get modifications by observing children using it, playing it, using it imaginatively. In fact, that's our source of strength. We then modify it and make changes. I think a good toy will be accepted all over the world because children have a lot in common. It's important that the child's toys must have a clear-cut strong message, a strong context, and it should be interesting to a child I think the children's participation is extremely important.
HP.
Okay. That's absolutely terrific. Thank you very much. That was fascinating stuff. Thanks to all of you for taking part.
END OF INTERVIEW
